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PC4 Problems

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Theclaudes
(@theclaudes)
Posts: 3
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I found the error, the loaded samples have a Release rate of 4033 dB / s, which I realized, since the conversion was done with 0.2 release, but the PC program never left them at that value and they were all with that great Rate amount. So, as a quick and reasonable solution, in "AMP ENV" I adjusted the general release to the keymap in "Natural Mode" to avoid doing it one by one. It sounded good, but I think the system confuses those changes, since releasing the key does not turn off or it takes a long time, producing the polyphonic lock. The solution was to change from 4033 dB / s to less (200 to 300dB / s) but directly to the sample and not through "AMP ENV". Anyway, sometimes, when we modify parameters such as decay, release or another, the sound remains stuck and does not return with anything to cut off even if we change the program, just turning off the PC4.

Greetings.

 
Posted : 11/06/2021 4:21 am
SMI
 SMI
(@smi)
Posts: 3
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@hipogrito  I noticed the same "Chorusing" problem.  The main Dyn 9ft Grand starts out fine.  After a little while the sound changes adding that slightly chorused sound.  I change the patch then come back and it clears up...for a while.  It is disappointing.

 
Posted : 17/10/2021 3:09 am
SMI
 SMI
(@smi)
Posts: 3
New Member
 

@luigi

I actually have the same problem.  I found your post by googling "known Kurzweil PC4 problems" and arrived here.  You described it perfectly.  The piano starts out fine, then "choruses".  I change the patch and come back and it is fine ... for a little while.  I didn't understand your "fix," though.

 
Posted : 17/10/2021 3:17 am
hipogrito
(@hipogrito)
Posts: 137
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@smi

Your issue looks more like a controller moves or it is noisy while you play and sends a high value of some midi cc. When you reselect the program the entry values are sent again and the program goes back to what it was.

The test to prove this is to do the following: set all the sliders and knobs to their lowest position. Select your program. Play. Does the problem appear? If it does, and our hypothesis is correct, the sound would be like if one controller is set to zero.

Also, the light of the save button would light in this scenario.

 
Posted : 17/10/2021 10:00 am
kurzweilfreak
(@kurzweilfreak)
Posts: 3
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@luigi I have experienced the same issues with the Piano. It's very disappointing that the Dyn 9ft Grand Piano sounds no better than a Casio piano. I've been searching for new samples to load in of different pianos to try and replace it. I finally just loaded a sample from my PC3K8 that I edited and adjusted and I never use the main piano sound on my PC4. The octave below middle C is just flat and sounds like someone let out a flat tire HAHA. I hope Kurzweil fixes this is an update soon. 

 
Posted : 08/12/2021 5:00 pm
Luigi
(@luigi)
Posts: 14
Active Member
Topic starter
 

Dear kurzweilfreak, it is really annoying this. The strange thing seems to be that it was done intentionally because if you walk inside the keymap you see that several keys are set out of tune.
I have recreated a few keymap for the most "offending notes" by using a tuner VST and adjusting the keymap. It is impossible to use the editor, which is useless for this kind of thing. I can try to share it here, but I am not sure how to save the piano sound with the new keymaps. Please, let me know if it works, and how to improve it...

This post was modified 3 years ago by Luigi
 
Posted : 09/12/2021 9:00 am
Luigi
(@luigi)
Posts: 14
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Topic starter
 

Here there is the updated piano....

 
Posted : 09/12/2021 9:07 am
hipogrito
(@hipogrito)
Posts: 137
Estimable Member Admin
 

Hi,

A piano can be tuned in multiple ways. There is not one single way to tune it. Normally, it is tuned "stretched" that means that in the extremes (upper and lower) the piano will be out of tune with other instruments. That's the most common way. Some people like different kinds of stretching and there is an art onto that or no stretched at all. There is a great book that I will recommend everybody called "Grand Obsession: A Piano odyssey" by Perri Knize. If you read the whole book you will see how related to this discussion is. It's in Amazon.

When you record a piano you need to tune it first and then record it. Normally, you tune it to its natural stretching curve of that particular piano. So your recording, normally, will be stretched.

Then, in the keyboard, you can un-stretch it if you want to then control the "stretching" using tuning tables, for example. Or you can leave it as is. So, if you see keymaps adjusting tuning, it could be done for many reasons. Sometimes to correct slightly out of tune original samples (it's a multiple dimension process because you have multi dynamics for one note and you want all of them to be properly tuned, but you also want it properly tuned with the adjacent keys, in all dynamics, and with the release samples, if you have them... in the end, there are always adjustments to do.

If you are tuning your piano with a regular tuner and not with a specific piano tuner you will likely not tune it properly stretched.  Also, using a tuner is really problematic because each physical piano has a different stretching curve. You can't just get one stretch curve and apply it to all pianos. 

Some good reading:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piano_tuning

 

Regards,

Fran

 
Posted : 09/12/2021 3:46 pm
Luigi
(@luigi)
Posts: 14
Active Member
Topic starter
 

@hipogrito, thanks for your reply. The problem is that some keys are clearly out of tune, particularly a low G and F, so that you can clearly hear a chorus-like effect due to beats when you also play the same note at the above octave. This is also reported at the following link: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/kurzweil-pc4

where it is said that:
"Worse, though, I discovered that in the firmware I tested, v1.06, many piano programs have out-of-tune notes. The flagship Program 1, for example, has four frequently used bass notes that beat obviously with octaves and fifths played above. The discrepancy moves to different pitches when the sample keymap has been modified for other programs, but it's not only the 9ft sample set that seems to be affected. In fact, only the old legacy piano sounds were bang in tune. I asked Kurzweil about it, and they said they're aware of the issue, are investigating, and plan to fix it in an update. It's not a difficult fix — a user prepared to investigate it and work through all the affected velocity layers could in fact fix it themselves — so I'm sure this will happen."

This is really annoying and it is unbelievable for me that this problem is still there. Incidentally, it occurs only when you press keys at a certain velocity played, but they are clearly out of tune. And this has nothing to do with the link that you sent to me, from which, in any case, I have learned a lot of things and I really thank you!

Ciao, from a rainy Rome,

Luigi

 

P.S. A free pizza for you when you come to Rome

 
Posted : 09/12/2021 6:43 pm
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